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Interview magazine, Tim Burton is interviewed by Christopher Lee

Tim Burton by Christopher Lee

As a schoolboy Tim Burton made a short film on master magician Harry Houdini. Now he's performing his own magic acts via the movies, conjuring tales that blur the line between dark and light, the fantastic and the commonplace.

Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is the latest film from one of those rare directors whose works are so completely their own that they're recognizable in a single glance or line of dialogue. If the story is rooted in the desires and fears children must suppress on the way to something called adulthood, if the settings are extravagantly bedecked and the camera angles vertiginous, if the lighting is unpredictable and the acting a skillful mix of delicate motivations and jangling emotional fireworks...well, then you can only be in Tim Burton's cinematic world. On the eve of the release of the 47-year old director's adaptation of Roald Dahl's classic tale of chocolate, children, and conspicuous consumption (filmed as a musical in 1971 as Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory) Hollywood's most addictive auteur did a time-out with another denizen of the dark side, actor Christopher Lee.

CL: I'd like to ask you two difficult questions, Tim, which you might not be able to answer. You've seen thousands of movies; I've seen thousands of movies.

TB: You've been in thousands of movies.

CL: (laughs) It seems like it. I would like to know if you could tell me what you think is the best film you've ever seen.

TB: I realized over many years I just can't answer that, because I grew up loving movies, and there are so many. And it's not just a movie for me, it's a movie at a certain time in a certain theater and a certain experience that all comes together for that moment. I certainly have lots of favorites, but to pick one is like saying which is your favorite child. I love the collective thing of it.

CL: What you're saying makes sense, because it's a question of generations of moviemaking. And pictures made in different eras are all different. Somebody once asked me if I could say which scene in any film says to me: "This is the cinema." My answer was and still is Gary Cooper walking down the street in High Noon (1952).

TB: But in that case, you're describing images that sort of burn into your subconscious. That's why I say I could never really pick one, because there are so many. In this age where it's become such a business, that's the beauty of cinema - the room goes dark, and you're in a dream state.

CL: Films, if they're properly made with the right cast, are magical.

TB: To me, the actors are most important, because they're the chemistry. That's why I always like working with people who are like silent film stars. Whether it's Johnny Depp or you or many other people, I say to myself, "These people don't even need to speak." Just seeing you on the screen can be enough. There are certain people who can just be there on the screen and not even doing much, yet they're giving you this amazing energy.

CL: For me, Johnny is the most outstanding actor of his generation. Not just because he's a friend, but because I think he is the best actor in cinema today. And the reason I think that is not just because of what I've seen but that he isn't afraid of a challenge. Your collaboration with Johnny Depp dates back more than a decade to Edward Scissorhands (1990), which I loved.

TB: Yeah, it was a special moment for me. Obviously the thing for me is that from day one, he was - and still is - willing to try anything, and he wants to try anything.

CL: I thought he was also brilliant in Ed Wood (1994). I mean, how do you play the man who was supposedly the worst director ever without overdoing it?

TB: Well, he goes to the edge, and that's the thing about him - Johnny's not afraid of danger. In fact, his middle name is danger. But each time I've worked with him has been a new thing, so it's kind of like aging - you get to see something change and see actors try different things each time. You get a connection, they become your friends, and you enjoy working with them a little more each time.

CL: That's the joy of it, because your approach to each story is different.

TB: Each time we've worked together, we've never picked one thing as an inspiration; we never say, "Oh, let's do this or that," because we all want to try to keep that energy going and that feeling of going out on the edge.

CL: Which is terribly difficult, especially if you're directing a picture like Sleepy Hollow (1999), and you spend so much time on night-shooting in the winter. Did you ever think of being an actor?

TB: I felt I was only a good actor in school, pretending like I was being a student.

CL: Then your approach or involvement in watching a film is bound to be different from mine.

TB: Although like most kids, I did make super-8 movies, and I was in them with my friends.

CL: It's great training.

TB: Yeah, but I remember Cameron Crowe asked me later, as an adult, to just do a little cameo in one of his movies (Single, 1992), and I was so nervous. It gave me this newfound respect for actors. It was good for me, because it made me realize just how tough and bizarre the whole thing is.

CL: What were some of your earliest inspirations in terms of the movies?

TB: Well, I was definitely in love with people like you and Vincent Price and Peter Cushing and Ray Harryhausen.

CL: But that's people, not films.

TB: Yeah, but they were films to me.j

CL: And Boris Karloff?

TB: And Boris Karloff, yeah, absolutely.

CL: He was a brilliant actor.

TB: No question about it. Before I could walk I was watching these movies, and I was never afraid of them. Because, that was really the interesting thing - the movies you guys were in were meant to be frightening, but there was something about you and all those people - Boris Karloff in Frankenstein (1931) - coming through something. That's what I find most fascinating.

CL: It's a genre that you fell in love with - and other movies, the silents of the '20's?

TB: Well, yeah, and it had to do with their look. I never saw them as "horror" movies.

CL: Fantasies. I've always called them that. Boris hated the word "horror," too.

TB: None of you were that at all. It's like dreams coming into multiple dimensions - it's as if you're actually seeing dreams as opposed to just dreaming them. So, that's what inspired me. I wasn't much of a reader. I was much more into the visual aspect of things.

CL: At that time, did you know that you wanted to be an artist and make films?

TB: I think every child loves to draw, so, no, I never felt like, "I'm going to be a filmmaker"; although like most kids, I liked making movies and things.

CL: But there must have been a moment when you suddenly said, "I want to be a film director!"

TB: There was one moment, and it happened in school. I had a big final exam - we were supposed to write a 20 page report on this book about Houdini. I probably would have loved reading it, but I didn't, so I just decided to make a little super-8 movie based on it. I tied myself to the railroad tracks and all that. I mean, this is kid stuff, but it impressed the teacher, and I got an A. And that was maybe my first turning point, when I said, "Yeah, I wouldn't mind being a filmmaker."

CL: On the surface, your films seem to be children's entertainment, but really deep down, like Alice in Wonderland, they're far from being that.

TB: That's the thing that's always amazed me. If you ask a normal modern American family what a fairy tale is, they'd probably go, "Oh, it's this happy story," but as we all know, fairy tales are amazingly horrific, so that's why I'm always fascinated by what people think are children's stories, and that's why I like Roald Dahl's work and his Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. He knew how to speak to children without speaking down to them, and it's why you can read his work as an adult and get things from it. He always got the dangerous aspects of childhood, the scary parts, the funny parts -

CL: He wrote some very frightening stories.

TB: But he understood that it's not just one thing - a child's life is completely surreal because it's all so new to them. So in some ways everything is kind of scary and amazing and funny and dark and light because of that.

CL: Well, all those elements are in Charlie, aren't they?

TB: I hope so. I think so. (laughs)

CL: Of course they are. A lot of people will see it as a fairy story or perhaps having some very deep psychological meaning. Some will say it's wonderful to look at, while others will find it very funny. When did you first encounter the story and what drew you to it?

TB: I read the book when I was a child, and it had a big impact on me because of the mixture of light and dark themes. It didn't talk down, and you understood the light, the dark, the humorous, the politically incorrect, all of those things that you love as a kid. Part of what we wanted to do with this was go back to the book. I'd read other scripts that the studio had developed, but what was always very important in this project was to hit the essence of the book, and that's what I said to John August, the screenwriter. So even though we create new things and have new elements, one of which you're sort of involved in, we always wanted to be true to the spirit of the original story. So that's why we didn't shoot a lot of blue screens but instead built lots of sets.

CL: Which I never saw. I hear they were fantastic.

TB: Yeah, it was especially interesting with the kids, because we were putting them in a real environment.

CL: And you had the genius to ask me to play Dr. Wilbur Wonka. (laughs)

TB: Listen, I'll ask you anytime.

CL: Be careful! You might be hearing from me when you make your next film: "Is there by any chance an elderly character that says nothing and sits in a wheelchair?"

TB: No, no - you're far from that!

CL: Some people ask me, "You're not playing major roles in films anymore, are you?" And I always answer that it isn't a question of how long or how short the part is, it's what kind of contribution you can make, and does it mean something in the context of the story.

TB: I don't really want to work with the people that count the pages.

CL: There's that classic story where I was playing the Creature in The Curse of Frankenstein (1957); I was in full makeup and stormed into Peter Cushing's dressing room, waving the script because I hadn't seen it before, saying, "I haven't got any lines! I haven't got any lines!" And he looked up at me and said, "You're lucky, I read the script." (laughs) The magic of moviemaking is making something out of nothing. Or making something out of very little. Or making a great deal out of something that's adequate. We all aim for that.

TB: (laughs) Yes, that, to me, is the beauty of moviemaking.

(Christopher Lee, who has appeared in films ranging from The Wicker Man (1973) to The Lord of the Rings trilogy, is listed in The Guinness Book of Movie Facts and Feats as the international star with the most screen credits to his name.)

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In the August 2005 issue of Interview magazine, following the interview of Tim Burton by Christopher Lee, there is an interview with Dylan Lauren, daughter of Ralph Lauren, who now owns a chain of very successful novelty upscale candy stores. There's a photo from CATCF on the page with the article, and mentions of CATCF, Johnny and Tim in the article. This interview was done before she saw CATCF, but she had seen Gene Wilder's movie as a child.

That's Why It's Candy

For Dylan Lauren, making dreams come true is part of her DNA.

Interview: So, Dylan, when did you first see Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory (1971)?

Dylan Lauren: I believe it was on my fifth birthday. It was the most memorable birthday party I ever had. I must have been in kindergarten, and I had all my friends over. Somehow my parents (Ralph and Ricky Lauren) got a print, set up a movie screen in our house, and did a little show there. It was like going to Disneyland! (laughs) The set design was so inspiring. Every kid loves candy, so when you see a whole land of it, and you don't know the difference between a movie and the real thing, it's just amazing. I still love to study that moment when they all first enter the factory - there's this magical music, and Wonka takes you down the steps into the lollipop trees and the chocolate river, and they're eating the leaves off the trees because they're all made of candy. Everything about it was just, like, "Wow!"

I: And then as an adult you took that obsession and created Dylan's Candy Bar.

DL: We're in the midst of developing new stores in L.A. and in New York right now, and I've always wanted Dylan's Candy Bar to evoke that set. What I've done with the design is to try and take that and make it more modern and Japanese and a little more nightclub-hip. In our store we have these candy-cane columns that were inspired by the film's candy-cane trees, and we have a lollipop tree as a centerpiece in the bulk bin area. I also want to use lickable wallpaper - I was even thinking of manufacturing and selling that.

I: A lickable world is a great idea.

DL: For one of my college essays, they asked us to compare ourselves to a food, animal or place, and I chose the Everlasting Gobstopper, (laughs) because I said it was well rounded, had many layers, was colorful, bright, and fun.

I: You must be psyched to see Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, directed by Tim Burton.

DL: I'm really excited to see it because Tim Burton has such a hip, artistic point of view. I imagine that the edge he's going to provide will make it totally wild.

I: What is it about chocolate that makes us so happy, beyond its serotonin-releasing properties?

DL: I think everyone loves the idea of a fantasy world, and candy is so colorful and fun. If you give anyone, adults included, a ticket to go into a candy factory, they'll become like kids again. They say the first purchase a child makes is candy, and adults have great memories of going to penny candy stores. When people walk into my store they can be 80 years old, but it brings back these childhood memories.

I: In the story, the five children who win the chance to visit Wonka's factory do so by being the lucky few to have purchased chocolate bars containing special golden tickets.

DL: Yeah, and that whole lottery aspect is another reason why this movie was so captivating to families - Charlie Bucket is this poor kid who lives in the shacks, and here he wins the golden ticket to Wonka's factory. It's like dreams really do come true.

I: So, it's like the American dream?

DL: Yeah, the story has that excitement that anything is possible.

I: And it seems like it's possible to create anything out of chocolate.

DL: That's what inspired me to do my store. I've seen a cathedral made out of chocolate, where every architectural element was carved by hand, and they have these chocolate fashion shows in Paris and New York where the models are wearing clothes made entirely of chocolate and these poofy hats carved of beautiful swirls of different colored chocolates.

I: Chocolate runways?

DL: (laughs) No, they'd melt!

I: What else are you looking forward to with Charlie and the Chocolate Factory?

DL: Just to see Johnny Depp portray Wonka, because he's such an amazing chameleon. I'm also really excited to see Freddie Highmore, whom I loved in Finding Neverland, plus I love Tim Burton's movies. I've heard that a lot of the candy that was made for the film by Nestle is real, like the giant chocolate bars. I also heard that for the scene where they show the nut-sorting room, they trained 40 squirrels to open the nuts and put them on the conveyor belt, all while sitting on these little barstools. (The rest of the squirrels in this scene are computer generated.) I'm also excited to see the new products that are going to come out. We're actually launching some of them at our store, such as the 10-pound Wonka bar. We sell the original Wonka bar, too - the chocolate bar that contained the golden tickets in the movie - and it's one of our top five sellers. So, as you can tell, I can't wait to see the movie. It's like the quote that they're using in the trailer, "Candy doesn't have to have a point, that's why it's candy."