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Programme No: 2552
Transmission date: 15 November 1999
Segment 2: Johnny Depp discusses 'Sleepy Hollow' (Segment 1 was Tim Burton)
Running time: 29 minutes

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CR [to camera]: For 15 years Johnny Depp has been regarded as one of the finest actors of his generation. Born in Kentucky, he moved to Los Angeles in his teens with the hopes of carving out a career in music. He started acting to pay the bills and soon landed the starring role in the television series '21 Jump Street'. While he could have had a conventional career as a leading man he has instead made a career of choosing unusual roles: 'Edward Scissorhands'; 'Ed Wood'; 'Donnie Brasco'; and 'What's Eating Gilbert Grape'.

Short FILM CLIPS from What's Eating Gilbert Grape; Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas; Donnie Brasco; Cry-Baby; Benny & Joon; Don Juan deMarco; Ed Wood; Edward Scissorhands.

CR [to camera]: His latest project 'Sleepy Hollow' marks his third collaboration with director Tim Burton. I am pleased to have Johnny Depp back on this programme.

CR [addressing JD]: When you watched that… First of all, you've never seen 'Gilbert Grape'.

JD: I've never seen 'Gilbert Grape', no.

CR: Anything else in there that you haven't seen? A movie that you have made?

JD [smiling]: I haven't seen 'Sleepy Hollow' yet.

CR [astonished laughter]: Is that right?

JD: Yeah.. I'm kind of masochistic in that way. I'm gonna wait until the premiere to see it.

CR [tongue in cheek]: Is that because you want the joy of seeing it for the first time at the premiere?

JD [smiling]: Well, 'joy' is not the word I'd choose ..

CR: The pain?

JD: Well, yeah… If I could not see the movies, I think I'd be better off. I get very uncomfortable watching myself. [Shrugs] It feels strange.

CR: Do you like being an actor?

JD: I do... Most of the time. There are some occupational hazards [slow smile] that I could live without, but yeah - it's a good job.

CR: OK, but is it 'Art' and 'Passion' and all that, for you? Or is it simply craft and, like a good plumber, I want to do a good job..

JD: Well… It's passion, certainly. Art? I would say I would aspire to be able to do something that's considered art. I'm not sure that that can be done in the movie industry, in the movie business. Because of that fact: it's the movie business. There's commerce involved.

CR: Because of the demands that they make in terms of box office, or their assumptions about box office?

JD: Assumptions about box office demands; about box office results; return on the money…all that stuff. Things that really are none of my business. When my job is done, it's done; it's over. You know?

CR: You set out to be a musician and you got into this for a lot of reasons and you are, you know, highly regarded.

JD: Oh! Thanks.

CR: Is the down side of it the loss of privacy?

JD: Yeah. Yeah! The loss of privacy… Even more than just the loss of privacy, the sort of aggressive invasion of your privacy, of your private life. It's very strange, because you are treated in some circumstances as a novelty. And that's a very uncomfortable position to be in. Mostly by - particularly, like the paparazzi. They have a tendency to be pretty aggressive.

CR: You're back with Burton.

JD: Yeah.

CR: 'Scissorhands'; 'Ed Wood'; what else? Is this the third?

JD: Yeah, this is the third.

CR: There is that kind of slant about you, which you and Burton share.

JD: Yeah, we connect on these kinds of levels.

CR: Well, what other kinds of levels?

JD: Errr…We share a similar sense of humour… For some reason on this film, we had a particular obsession with Georgie Jessel.

CR [laughing]: Oh, I've heard about this! Yeah! Give me your best Jessel.

JD [mimicking]: "Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Georgie Jessel here." It got so bad, our obsession with Georgie Jessel, that literally they'd roll camera and the guy would do the sticks, and I'd just be getting ready to walk into frame to begin the scene and suddenly I would hear [mimicking] "And…Action!" And it was Tim doing Georgie Jessel. And then, of course, at the end of the scene [mimicking] "Cut!" You know? [laughing] So, yeah, we were sort of obsessed with Georgie Jessel and why aren't there people like Georgie Jessel today.

CR: At this stage in a relationship, where you're both on the same wavelength; where you've done several things before; is there much communication about what you're doing, and what he wants you to do, and where you marry those two?

JD: Tim is particularly amazing in that way for an actor. He's a dream for an actor. Because he will give you suggestions and he'll plant certain seeds. And then you take that and you use that as an ingredient. But he allows you complete freedom to create a character from the ground up. Even…There were times before.. We did 'Scissorhands'. He rehearsed everyone; he didn't rehearse me. He didn't really know exactly what I was going to do when I walked on the set. Same thing with 'Ed Wood'. I mean, I spent the first two weeks of 'Ed Wood' - and 'Scissorhands' and in fact 'Sleepy Hollow' - thinking that I was going to be fired, that I was going to be replaced. Because I just thought: "There's no way I can get away with this. It's just not right". But luckily Tim was happy with the stuff and [laughing] I didn't lose my job.

CR [smiling]: You're not serious.

JD: Oh yeah, I swear. I swear to you; I swear to you. I can remember when we were doing 'Scissorhands' we were living in this sort of resort, some kind of country club thing. And there was a knock at the door - this was like 1990 - there was a knock at the door one afternoon when everybody was off rehearsing. And there were two young girls at the door. So I figured "Wow, they've found me.. Maybe they want me to sign something.." I don't know; you get used to the sort of conditioning. So I opened the door and said "How do you do?" and they said "Hi! Is Tom Hanks here? Does he live here?" And I said "What?!" And they said, "Does Tom Hanks live here?" And I said "No. Not yet." And I was convinced that Hanks would be replacing me. I was convinced! And it was one of the most frightening moments in my career...

CR [laughing]: You don't seem to be the kind of guy that would have an insecurity in your body.

JD [astonished]: What!?

CR: I mean, you seem to say: "Take life on my terms. If you like it, fine; if you don't, then..."

JD [laughing]: That makes for more insecurities! No, I got plenty; I got plenty! But I do feel the kind of need to.. to follow…to follow whatever it is I'm after ..I need to bash on, into the direction I'm going. Yeah, it's important to not... To do what you want without much compromise.

CR: Sure, but at the same time it's important to be a professional, because other people are going to have a certain element of accountability, yes?

JD: Yeah yeah. Professional is a good thing, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. [smiling] Try not to be late, all that stuff.

CR: Well, that's exactly right. We owe it to our fellow..

JD: Oh, you bet. You've got 100 people sitting on the set, waiting for you… Yeah, you get the long face when you arrive. No, I don't do that. [smiling]

CR: OK. Ichabod Crane.. We're not going to tell the story - we know the story - but in this case you are a police constable who has come up to Sleepy Hollow, to do what?

JD: Basically Ichabod Crane, in this version of 'Sleepy Hollow', is a constable in New York City and he is not well liked by his fellow officers and by the brass.

CR: Pray tell why.

JD: He's sort of a …He fancies himself a kind of…. ahead of his time, so he's invented these kind of forensic studies, and invented these tools and things like that. And he's a pretty self-righteous type guy, and he's not liked. At all. So he's sent away to Sleepy Hollow to investigate these gruesome murders.

CR: He's also a coward.

JD: He's a complete coward. A total coward.

CR [laughing]: Alright. Here is a scene from 'Sleepy Hollow' where Ichabod Crane is being briefed on the murders in Sleepy Hollow. Here it is.

FILM CLIP from SH: Ichabod Crane: "Three persons murdered. The first: Peter van Garrett, and his son Dirk van Garrett. Both of them strong, capable men…"

CR: It's a great cast of people.

JD: Unbelievable. Yes.

CR: The great Gambon.

JD: Michael Gambon is a genius, y'know? Yeah... All those guys. I mean, walking into that room.. That was one of the first days of shooting, maybe the first day of shooting. And walking into that room with Michael Gambon; Miranda Richardson; Richard Griffiths; Jeffrey Jones; Ian McDiarmid. It doesn't get better; I mean, it just doesn't get any better than that.

CR: Did you learn from them?

JD: Absolutely. You become a sponge and soak up as much as you can. Absolutely.

CR: I mean, when Michael was here.. He came by, on stage, and he's just…amazing.

JD: Yeah. He's also.. [pause] ...completely out of his mind. He's one of the funniest people I've ever met in my life. He's totally out of his mind.

CR: See, I think that would make movies fun! The idea that you can come together on a project, with a group of people with a common purpose.. You know, it's not a lifetime! And engage in something together; eat together; have fun together -

JD: You bet.

CR: - be committed to the craft of doing it well. Bring in a reservoir of experience and talent and skill…

JD: Oh, it's unbelievable. I consider every film that I do an education, to a certain extent. You're always learning.

CR [to camera]: Take a look at this. This is another scene from 'Sleepy Hollow'. I want to get to a scene with Christina Ricci. [to JD:] Who does she play?

JD: Katrina van Tassel. The daughter of Michael Gambon.

CR: OK. Here it is. Roll tape.

FILM CLIP from SH: Ichabod: "Katrina. You took the evidence and burned it.."

CR: You, as I was watching her, said you first met her when she was nine.

JD: Nine years old.

CR [laughing]: She's now 19. And there are love scenes in this movie!

JD: There are.. intimate scenes and, yeah, it was odd! Y'know, it was uncomfortable because I still have that image of that 8-9 year-old girl in my head. So it was uncomfortable. But we sort of laughed about it and got over it.

CR: Well, she's hot too, isn't she? Not 'hot' as in the sexy scene, but hot in her career.

JD: She's doing very well. She's making good choices. Yeah, she's doing really well, Christina. She's a good kid.

CR: Speaking of choices [smiling]... Have you made good choices, in your judgement? I mean, do you look back and say: "Look, I did what I wanted to do. It's defining of me but if you don't… You might have wanted me to do something else but that's not where I was in my own head."

JD: There were the things that I probably should have done. Not from my perspective. I mean, from my point of view I did the right things. Every film that I've done, I'm happy that I made that choice. I don't have any regrets whatsoever. But I mean.. In terms of sustaining box-office bankability [slow smile] I should have done a few of the things that I didn't do. But I'm glad I didn't do them. I mean -

CR: Because it wouldn't have been you.

JD: Yeah.. but it would have been for the wrong reasons. Everything that I've been lucky enough to do, I did for the right reasons.

CR: Most people would say that if you'd wanted to be a, quote, - and maybe you are; I don't quite understand these terms - but if you'd wanted to be a 'leading man' in the traditional way, it was yours there for the taking. And you didn't want that.

JD: I think any actor, given a certain amount of success, or given a certain amount of... You know: if somebody hands you the ball you run with it. Any actor could do that. But I… It's not me. It wasn't me. I mean, my heroes are.. Lon Cheney is one of my heroes. One of the greatest character actors of all time. I prefer - I aspire to be thought of as a character actor, or to be a character actor. I think that's much more interesting.

CR: You think you'll be successful in that, or the way the system works will just grab you and make you into whatever, despite… In other words: it's a little bit like James Dean may have said "I don't want to be..whatever", I don't know, but the system is going to take it, because it's so appealing in some ways.

JD: Well, the system, the industry.. I was on a television series for three.. Three or four years; about four seasons. And I was without question a product. Not my own product. I was somebody else's product. And they shoved me down the throats of America and it was a very uncomfortable situation. And I swore to myself that when I got off that show I would do what I wanted, the way I wanted to do it. And I stick to that. If I had to do the leading man things just to continue to be an actor, continue to work... Nah. I'd rather go back to pumping gas.

CR: Really?

JD: Yeah. Definitely. I mean, look at it. As I said, it's a great job, it's one of the best jobs I've ever had, but there are other things.

CR: Can't you do both?

JD [pausing to think about the question]: I can't.. I just don't -

CR: I mean, is it just so distasteful that you wouldn't want to do it?

JD: I just don't want to go out and make Hallmark cards, film Hallmark cards. I just don't see the point. If something's been done a million times why do it again? Try something different. Just try it. I mean, the worst is you get shot down. But just try.

CR: Bad characters are more interesting?

JD: Bad characters?

CR: I don't know what 'bad' means, but more ..Characters that may be damned or something.

JD: Damaged.

CR: Damaged. Yes, that's better.

JD: Damaged characters are more interesting. That's what's great about the work. Everybody's damaged; everyone's damaged on some level. And I'm fascinated with human behaviour. I'm fascinated with the flaws of the human being. I'm just fascinated with it. I mean, ticks and character flaws -

CR: Quirks.

JD: Yeah. I'm fascinated with it. It's a strange thing, because the greatest thing you can do as an actor, I think, is to be an observer. And at a certain point something bizarre happens and you're not able to observe in public anymore because everyone's observing you. So that's a little bit.. That's the kind of danger.

CR: Aren't you already there?

JD: Sorry?

CR: Aren't you already there? I mean, this fascination with you has, in a sense, prevented you from.. I mean, they're lining up outside the hospital while you're waiting for your daughter to be born!

JD: Yes. There were about 25 paparazzi outside and it was like.. I don't know - remora fish, you know? These blood suckers! I just couldn't believe it, that they would try to take something so sacred and so special… I mean, your first child born happens one time, obviously, and these people outside they are trying to turn it into some kind of a circus. And that's so unfair. I mean, Lily-Rose - mine and Vanessa's daughter - our first trip out of the hospital.. She's 5 days old. We had to escape down through the garage and out, and we were being chased by paparazzi. And we got to her parents' house and we closed the gate, and we thought we were home free. And we were just about to get out of the car. This was our first trip in a car, back home. And we were just about to get out of the car and suddenly a helicopter swoops down above the yard and just hovered there for, like, 10 minutes. We had to wait in the car until this thing left. I mean, that's bizarre. That's no way to live your life. That is no way to live your life.

CR: The interesting thing is, as you were telling me, I thought: Has nothing changed since the tragedy of Diana?

JD: No. No. Nothing. No. They're aggressive beasts. They're aggressive beasts and they're after one thing. That's -

CR: The shot.

JD: The shot. And money. It's a greed thing. I understand for some it's a... You know, it's their bread-and-butter. OK, I'm with you on that. But an innocent, pure little child -

CR: There's no middle ground either, I guess, is there? There's no middle ground. I don't know, but not with that stuff. I mean, there's middle ground where you can say "OK, look, the two of us will come out with our baby." You know: "Just let's do one shot and let's stop this panic."

JD: But you see, that I'm not going to give them.

CR: You won't give them that.

JD: I won't give them the shot of my baby, of our baby, because she didn't ask for the attention, the weirdness. She didn't ask to be photographed. It's not fair to put her through a three-ring circus and make her jump through hoops. It's not fair. For me, for Vanessa: OK, you get the shot, get the shot. I will do everything in my power to avoid it but [smiling] if you get the shot, you get the shot.

CR [laughing]: So it becomes a contest.

JD: Yeah! You know. But I have in the past approached them in as gentlemanly a fashion as I can, y'know? I've asked… The incident in London: I asked them. I said: "Please. I don't want to be who you want me to be tonight. I don't want to be Johnny Depp for you tonight. So.. We're celebrating; it's a special night; please leave us alone." And they were very aggressive. And.. I had to…uh…[smiling] I had to take another route.

CR: What did you do?

JD: It just so happened that there was a piece of wood [illustrating] about yea big, about that round.. I guess the restaurant use it as a door jam. I picked it up and ..er.. smacked one of them on the hand with it and I went outside and I said: "Now. Please. Take my picture. Please. Because the first one, the first flash that I see, is the recipient of this. Let's have it. Let's do it. Let's have our photo shoot."

CR: Right.

JD: Not one picture was taken... until the police arrived, about 10 minutes later.

CR: Then they all wanted to photograph that.

JD: They did! That's when the flashes went off. But it was a beautiful -

CR: Yeah.. It's not funny, but I'm smiling because of your retelling of it.

JD: But it was in fact a beautiful moment. It was a beautiful moment because it showed them for what they really are. And there was a kind of poetry to it. It was beautiful. I don't regret it at all. I mean, if I had to do it again, that kind of thing, I would do it again.

CR: So when you were sitting in the jail for five hours, you said: "It was a beautiful moment."

JD: Yeah, I just said to the cops: "Let me know when I can leave", y'know? The cops were real nice. In fact, it's funny.. the jail cells over there are not called - they don't call it 'cells'. [smiling] They call them 'custody suites'. Which I thought was very nice.

CR [laughing]: Are they custody suites?

JD [laughing]: They're cells. But they were real nice, the cops over there. I liked them.

CR: Oh, you liked them? So you got along with them fine?

JD: Yeah, in fact they understood. They said, y'know -

CR: - You shouldn't have to do this, endure this.

JD [lighting up a cigarette]: Hmmm.

CR: Having this baby's right though, huh?

JD: She's everything. The baby is everything. It's so amazing, my little family. It's so.. it's unbelievable. [pausing] I don't know… It's the only thing that's ever happened to me. Really. The only thing. Everything else is…smoke. This is it. This is real life.

CR: Did you see the birth?

JD: I was there. Yeah. [broad smile] Unbelievable. I mean, I've been - Since May 27th when my daughter was born I have been floating. I smile constantly, which I never did before.

CR: And you never imagined you'd have this kind of…

JD: No. You can never - Everybody tells you what they're experiencing and you know it's going to be something sublime, but .. No, you can't imagine until it actually happens. When you see this little angel arrive. It's… I mean, for Vanessa and I, the both of us have just been floating ever since. It's unbelievable.

CR: Lily-Rose.

JD: Lily-Rose Melody.

CR: Why Lily-Rose?

JD: Uhh.. I don't know.. We just…

CR: You liked the name?

JD: ..it was the only - In fact it was the only name that we'd come up with for a girl. Lily-Rose… We both loved the name 'Lily', and I think her mom - Vanessa's mom - suggested the 'Rose' part.. Uhhmm.. my mom's name is Betty-Sue and we wanted something that sounded kinda like 'Betty-Sue', that sort of southern thing. So 'Lily-Rose'.

CR: That's great!

JD: And 'Melody', which is her middle name, was after a Serge Gainsbourg song called 'Melody Nelson'.

CR: So her name is Lily-Rose Melody..

JD: Depp. [smiling broadly] She's something!

CR: Man, you really look happy!

JD: I'm floating. I've just.. Yeah! It's… I've never, ever in my life - I haven't lived before that day. I was not alive. I existed. I imagine that I drew breath and exhaled and all that stuff, but I don't [shrugs] have any particularly fond memories of it. I mean, I don't think I took a real breath until my daughter was born.

CR [after a pause]: It's great to have you here.

JD [smiling warmly]: Thank you.

CR: A pleasure, as always.

JD: Thank you.

CR: Johnny Depp. The movie is 'Sleepy Hollow'. It opens nationwide on November 19th. [addressing JD:] We'll do this again soon.

JD: I hope so. Let's do it.

CR: Thank you. [to camera:] Thank you very much for joining us. Johnny Depp. The movie again: 'Sleepy Hollow', opens nationwide November 19th. Thank you for joining us. See you next time.

Roll CLOSING CREDITS